Curse

Martin Alvito · Jan 19, 2010, 08:44 PM // 20:44

The last thing that I will do is use mod powers to mess with your posts. Sling your accusations with impunity. The thesis I'm defending is that you're incorrect about the impact of syncing and botting in RBR. Syncing isn't worth the cost for the best players. Ditto for botting.

As for botting in GvG - I think the problem is overstated. Is it bad and environment-defining? Absolutely! But if you know that guild X bots, you can adjust your build to take advantage of that knowledge and win. From a ladder perspective, it's terrible. From a mAT perspective? Not so bad.

Martin Alvito · Jan 19, 2010, 08:57 PM // 20:57

Said interrupt bot spends (lots) of energy to interrupt things. Good teams didn't roll over to heroes loaded up with Power Block and other interrupts. You shouldn't QQ now.

The bot needs energy to function, no?

If Yuri was botting, then the proper response is to throw a snowball, provoke the drop, and steal.

As for others: you're assuming that the bot understands optimal play...which is a contention that I reject. Optimal play changes...fast.

Killed u man · Jan 19, 2010, 08:58 PM // 20:58

Also, someone publicaly announced a site on no names where one can find some of the programs I was talking about. For the non-believers, feel free to check it out... (Tough this is not related to the programs I'm personally talking about, they are made by different people, using the same techniques)

@ Above:

The bot usually runs on pdrain, leech, dshot, and other cheap 5 energy spells. So you, as the "faker" are ATLEAST spending as much energy as the bot is. And I don't know about you, but 40 energy on a Monk means alot more than 40 energy on a mesmer. Any GvG will agree on that one. You don't play (push, fallback) according to your mesmer's energy, you play according to your Monk's energy...

And throw a snowball to make him drop a relic is exactly what I did. (I don't know what the problem here is?)

Martin Alvito · Jan 19, 2010, 09:10 PM // 21:10

Then change your bar...

If the meta calls for 5e spells, you run them. If it calls for KD-locking the mesmer, KD-lock it. If your tactics are fail, I have no sympathy. I've monked enough teams that refused to properly support the backline, then blamed the L on the backline, to know.

If throwing a snowball is sufficient to compel a drop, then the mission was accomplished. You have the gift, amirite? Again, while I think an advantage (in principle) exists from botting, good play can negate such an advantage. It's humans that can make decisions that are dangerous. Bots cannot dominate GW.

Killed u man · Jan 19, 2010, 09:23 PM // 21:23

Aside from the fact I totally do not agree with your vision on bots, I still believe you're wrong in thinking that real players can overcome bots.

I'm really sorry, but if you have a mesmer out there who can interrupt your every spell, including 1/4's, you're NOT GOING TO WIN.

Sure, no GvG team is ever going to use such a bot, cuz it would blatantly obvious (which it is right now, but atleast people aren't using it in AT's) and it would get banned, I gues?!, fairly fast.

What you're saying is that Monk, which RELY on casting spells can overcome the fact they CAN'T CAST spells? How exactly?

And when people have to adjust their bars in order to "anti" bots, well that pretty much prooves my intire point. (That the bot is too powerfull to be beaten by measures of "skill") And as said before, what exactly was your idea?

Run Mo/D's with Pious concentration? Do you know this is not, in the least bit, a viable option?

And you're calling "botters" a new meta? I mean, I'm really sorry, but I'm almost laughing at that statement...

Having to KDlock a mesmer, aside from the fact I can name a million counters, just so he can't interrupt your Monks ever spell is NOT a viable option.

Again, I (we as a guild) DID force-drop Yuris' relic. We picked it up, but he would then again pick it up. (He alone could outpick-up all of us 90% of the time)

It's not just exploiting a bot's weakness, it's BEATING the bot. Sure, we CAN force drop his present, but 2 seconds later, one of you guys (your guild) KD'd us, and he would once again pick it up and run it another mile closer to their avatar. (And he wasn't the only one botting)

It's the same in rollerbeetle. You CAN beat a bot, maybe once, but a bot is going to get better results in the long run. We (regular players) can get a 480K run, MAYBE a 483K run. Botters can get consistent 480k+ runs, just because every chance they get, will be a chance they take for the full 100%.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

Bots cannot dominate GW.

Yet they have been for years. Not the high end PvP (HA - GvG) but in lower end (TA), Snowball and RBR. That is the very foundation of my claims. Bots have been dominating these formats (Well, mainly the holiday events, the TA interrupt bot was widely know as an annoyance, but still beatable).

Bob Slydell · Jan 19, 2010, 09:49 PM // 21:49

I hurd with various forms of packet injection, it's possible to move wherever you want in the map.

l Rainy l · Jan 19, 2010, 10:09 PM // 22:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

But if you know that guild X bots, you can adjust your build to take advantage of that knowledge and win.

You sound a lot like Polly with this statement - this is not a good thing. Regardless of whether or not one can defeat a bot - which you so polemically defend in a rather desperate attempt to show your own skills at RBR (a niche part of a dead game lol) - they are still against the general spirit of GW.

From observing your posts in this thread, I have deduced you are a very obtuse thinker. Everything you have said is a result of your own set of skills - simply ignoring the average player, you consider bots a non-issue because you believe you can defeat them. Besides this being the unevenly-stressed argumentation of an obviously very insecure person, you come across as rude and egotistical.

While the OP is no doubt whiney, having to read your obnoxious posts was 1000 times more painful of an experience.

Pro-tip (to quote you): It is possible to defend your point of view without brutally reinforcing your own skill set in RBR. Oh, and also, we are talking about RBR - stop being serious.

Mister-Magic · Jan 19, 2010, 10:22 PM // 22:22

You should stop wasting your time Martin, Borat is just bad, and he's just complaining because he's not enough skilled to get in top 100. Even in top 100, he would complaining again because he's not top 10. That's an amazing whining thread. And by the way, I don't think the guy on the youtube video is cheating, I don't see any problem.
My best is 483,375 with fail start and taking 3 powerups (next to the cows, cuz no echo in cave), I improved my course for 2 years and got my first top 100 last year. It's just skill. Don't forget that someone did 480+ thanks to the youtube video (page 1 or 2 I don't remember). Now please Borat stop whining.

~Ewok

kedde · Jan 19, 2010, 10:47 PM // 22:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

Then change your bar...

If the meta calls for 5e spells, you run them. If it calls for KD-locking the mesmer, KD-lock it. If your tactics are fail, I have no sympathy. I've monked enough teams that refused to properly support the backline, then blamed the L on the backline, to know.

If throwing a snowball is sufficient to compel a drop, then the mission was accomplished. You have the gift, amirite? Again, while I think an advantage (in principle) exists from botting, good play can negate such an advantage. It's humans that can make decisions that are dangerous. Bots cannot dominate GW.

This here I have to point out.
Of course no bot as of now that can be feasibly created for a purpose such as a game will be able to have sophisticated enough AI to draw conclusions for interchanging variables and as many factors as a human brain does.
But that isn't even the point.

Even if you can work around some of the issues with bots, there never, ever should even be an issue with bots which is what the thread was originally about, barring the whole RBR sidetrack.

Its the complete same old argument as gamebalance has always gone through, now just for internal and external game mechanics instead.
If x meta is terrible you adapt, very true, but x meta shouldn't have to be terrible in the first place.
Same goes for x bot, it simply shouldn't be there in the first place, no matter how many points it has that are still inferior to a human brain.

shump · Jan 19, 2010, 10:50 PM // 22:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shayne Hawke

The better bots won't be looking to make the most efficient use of what it's given. It will simply be hoping that it gets an Echo and Super out of its first few boxes and then gets to run with it. Trying to make a bot that puts out the absolute best usage of all skills considered at all times would be truly impossible.

Have you ever programmed in your entire life. All it would take would be simple if statements.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polgara Val

Bottom line is a bot no matter how sophisiticated no matter how many ways you programme it to do "when this happens do this" can ever outpace the top RBR racers.

It simply doesent have what the human brain can do, to aniticipate and adjust to almost an infinite amount of variables and things that can occur during a race, baring the static things that always occur.

Pol

infinite variables? are u kiddening be programming a bot for RBR is easy. Try programing true AI for a video game which is about 1000x times harder. Or how bout how shadows are shaded on to different textures good luck with needing to no calculus like the back of your hand.

spike bots would be easy to implement. Grab the time from the clock on your pc that everyone has sync with the same website. spike every 30 sec or what eve.

I Angra I · Jan 19, 2010, 11:04 PM // 23:04

@ the Martin Alvito guy and everyone else saying that bots aren't a problem because you can just outplay them:

I've only skimmed through your posts in this thread, haven't really read any of them entirely, but it seems like you're trying to play devil's advocate by saying "bots aren't a problem because you can easily counter them". You are in fact spewing nonsense. Bots have no place in competitive PvP, snowball arenas, RBR, or anything else in the entire game, and there's absolutely no reason for ANet to allow them. It doesn't matter if you can outplay them or not - they shouldn't be allowed. I think it's absolutely hilarious that your entire reasoning is based on the fact that you're on such a high horse that you think you can just outplay bots or build against them with simple nonsensical theorycrafting and solve the entire problem. First of all, in GvG, interrupt bots (and bots of any kind) ARE in fact a problem. Not even getting into the morality of the situation, i.e. the fact that bots have no place in competitive gaming and it takes away from the whole experience, when a mesmer bot has 8 interrupts on his bar, it completely locks down 2-3 characters on the other team. Now, that may not be a problem when you're playing in a rank 200 guild against a rank 800 guild that has a bot (which I suppose is why you think that they aren't a problem?) but when they start being introduced into high level GvG (think single elims of a mAT), with teams of equal skill level, it will in fact give the botting team a HUGE edge.

I have absolutely no idea why ArenaNet has not addressed this issue yet, and it truly is the final nail in the coffin to killing this game's competitive aspect. It was already getting terrible when they decided to space out skill updates to 2 month periods, and then decided to delay them anyway, when there have been huge problems with the meta and tiebreaker system for months, even YEARS now. But this is the one big, final "F U" to the competitive playerbase, and it's very sad to imagine what competitive GvG could have been, compared to what it turned out to be, because its company is run by such incompetents.

This isn't how you run a successful company, and I really hope GW2 turns out to be a disaster if they decide to run it in the same terrible way that they've managed this game.

Polgara Val · Jan 19, 2010, 11:27 PM // 23:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by shump

Have you ever programmed in your entire life. All it would take would be simple if statements.

infinite variables? are u kiddening be programming a bot for RBR is easy. Try programing true AI for a video game which is about 1000x times harder. Or how bout how shadows are shaded on to different textures good luck with needing to no calculus like the back of your hand.

spike bots would be easy to implement. Grab the time from the clock on your pc that everyone has sync with the same website. spike every 30 sec or what eve.

Actually I have used shadows/shading/textures/low poly etc which in turn leads to physics and maths since I am a 3D animator by proffesion so I do know more then most. In point of fact though if you can come up a "comepetitive bot" and its as "easy" as you say to make one, then feel free to do so and lets see how far it gets you into the top 100.

The OP was talking about a competitive bot in RBR not something that rolls around like a dead donkey all the way to the end. My 16 year old cousin can do that to if he was bothered to actually sit down and do it of course.

Pol

kedde · Jan 19, 2010, 11:33 PM // 23:33

You completely missed the point.
They're not hard to create for anyone with coding experience and they'll never fail since they get all the data needed to function for their simple yet effective tasks directly from the game instead of being some retarded bot relying on oldschool methods like pixels or external timers.

Yeah, my mother could learn how to make one as well if she would be bothered, how is that even a point.
Neither is how far it'll actually get you a fair point.
There are too many factors involved for a single bot to yet take everything into account, but nobody should care the least about that part as long as they know its possible to even use a bot.

Reverend Dr · Jan 20, 2010, 12:21 AM // 00:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by kedde

You completely missed the point.
They're not hard to create for anyone with coding experience

This is what I'm so disappointed about.

Script kiddies that can only download and install a bot aren't nearly as effective as the crowd that can create and modify bots. Earlier someone mentioned having their channeling pblocked, either that person wasn't running the notorious interrupt bot or was an idiot; that bot has a setup where you can determine which skills are interrupted by what, either they set an interrupt-all or actually told the bot to pblock channeling.

But what about a bot I can toggle on and off with a keystroke? Play normally until I need to do something perfectly, toggle the bot on, then toggle it back off when done, toggle it on only when its conditions are correctly met, so there is no drawback to running the bot. What about further modification? Is there really an upper limit to it? At what point does a bot stop being "oh bots are bad and easy to beat" and they start becoming a legitimate concern?

The answer is as soon as there is the existence of bots.

Martin Alvito · Jan 20, 2010, 01:43 AM // 01:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by l Rainy l

From observing your posts in this thread, I have deduced you are a very obtuse thinker. Everything you have said is a result of your own set of skills - simply ignoring the average player, you consider bots a non-issue because you believe you can defeat them.

I don't believe. I know. The other top RBR players are human beings, not bots. It follows that I can beat a bot.

It also follows that you, or anyone else, is capable of beating a bot in RBR given sufficient effort. If you disagree and you wish to convince me, then you need to script the bot that can beat me and prove me wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by l Rainy l

Besides this being the unevenly-stressed argumentation of an obviously very insecure person, you come across as rude and egotistical.

I don't know where you're getting insecure from. Rude and egotistical is by design here. Borat is claiming that I cheat. If there's a possible response to that claim that isn't egotistical, I'd love to hear it. As for rude, I see no reason to be nice here. He's wrong and he's engaging in slander. I don't appreciate slander, so I don't play nice in response.

@ Ewok - You're good. The evidence proves it.

@ Angra - I'm not defending the existence of bots. I agree that they're reprehensible, as I've said elsewhere in the thread. The point is that the best players (in any format) don't lose to them. If you're losing to bots...you're bad. Don't blame the bot. It's a fixed constraint. Alter your own behavior to beat the bot.

People used to load up mesmer heroes with seven interrupts. The hero was just as ninja as a bot. Good players still beat the heroes. I've watched them do it in obs.

So why complain about it? In practice, the bot is no different than blood spike, IWAY, or any other build devoid of skill. It sucks that bots define the GvG meta right now. However, there's not much to do about it except adapt until ANet gets around to solving the problem.

I Angra I · Jan 20, 2010, 01:58 AM // 01:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

@ Angra - I'm not defending the existence of bots. I agree that they're reprehensible, as I've said elsewhere in the thread. The point is that the best players (in any format) don't lose to them. If you're losing to bots...you're bad. Don't blame the bot. It's a fixed constraint. Alter your own behavior to beat the bot.

People used to load up mesmer heroes with seven interrupts. The hero was just as ninja as a bot. Good players still beat the heroes. I've watched them do it in obs.

So why complain about it? In practice, the bot is no different than blood spike, IWAY, or any other build devoid of skill. It sucks that bots define the GvG meta right now. However, there's not much to do about it except adapt until ANet gets around to solving the problem.

I didn't see that you had said you were against the existence of them so I apologize for the harsh post earlier. However I'd still beg to differ, at least in GvG, that bots can simply be beat by playing well. I do agree that if you're playing against a worse team, then yes, of course you'll still win because you're a lot better than the 7 other players on their team. However, when you have two really good teams of fairly even skill level, having something like a mes or ranger with perfect interrupts being able to completely shut down either midline defense or monks can be a pretty huge issue. When the rest of the team knows how to wipe you and is good at it, having something like an interrupt bot actually is pretty beneficial I think. Also, at least with the mesmer bots, they don't just simply interrupt and that's it. You're still capable of playing it like a regular dom mes, using your diversions/shames/enchant strips etc, and in addition to that have your bot interrupting things. So it does kind of make it twice as potent as a regular player on dom mes, if the person on it is good at mesmering to begin with.

On the subject of knowing it's coming and building against it, it's really hard to keep track of what teams across the Atlantic are running because of the huge contrast in times zones. We (being American teams) never really see much of anything from Europe until we play against their teams in mAT's, and even then it's match after match and not much time to obs, get information on who's running what, etc. And it's difficult to just always be built for it because, not thinking of anything specific but in general, it seems like it would be gimping yourself if you were to play against anything else, in order to counter botting.

l Rainy l · Jan 20, 2010, 04:38 AM // 04:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

If there's a possible response to that claim that isn't egotistical, I'd love to hear it.

I can't believe you are serious. For someone who clearly takes pride in his vocabulary your reasoning skills deeply sadden me. Honestly, all you have to argue is that it is impossible for that complex of a bot to exist given the variables - that's it. Why you feel the need to assert yourself in the equation is absolutely nonsensical. The argument at hand is that these bots do not exist at high levels. You are essentially saying in response:

1. I am amazing at RBR
2. I don't use a bot therefore there are none
3. Hypothetically if there was one I would beat it anyway

Alternative:

1. I personally have never encountered one
2. Too complex to code RBR

(Although you mentioned these 2 points you somehow spent the other 90% of your argument addressing the previous 3.)

I'm sorry but that answer seems to painstakingly made to include yourself in the answer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

If you're losing to bots...you're bad. Don't blame the bot. It's a fixed constraint. Alter your own behavior to beat the bot.

These are the kind of responses that I still find disturbing as they are one of the primary reasons progress does not get made in GW. "Your losing to bots you're bad" is an immature and elitist approach to a wide spread problem that is fundamentally cheating. The fact of the matter is that while this problem may not effect the top areas of pvp, it effects the player base much more severely on an aggregate level. I feel very happy for you and your e-penis that you have no trouble with bots, but not everyone has been blessed with such "skill" - and hubris.

The fact of the matter is one shouldn't have to alter their behavior to bots because they shouldn't exist in the first place. Moreover, they are made for a reason - they give the player an unfair advantage in some areas, even if these areas become less exploitable in high end pvp. This attitude that you have just demonstrated is grotesquely out of touch with the majority of the player base and the more casual pvper, and you perpetuating it only lends itself to less progress in the future. Unfortunately people like you - who have obvious problems with elitism and a big ego - are the ones who have privileged access to such means of communication as skill balance forums.

We understand you think very highly of yourself in this game, but I ask you - probably for the first time in your life - to be slightly more empathetic in your responses. Secondly, I urge you to keep in mind that we are talking about Guild Wars, and more specifically - and somewhat surprising considering your level of ego - RBR. This is an online video game - I can understand you pursuing some level of apathy in the real world, but why you feel the need to flaunt your place as a "top player" in GW is strange. Get over yourself and you will be much more successful in life.

Martin Alvito · Jan 20, 2010, 05:04 AM // 05:04

You still haven't made an argument for how there's a non-egotistical response. At the end of the day, the claim is:

- I am good at it, and I don't cheat.
- Other people are good at it. They don't cheat either.
- There's a reason why that obtains: time limitations. If you could test your RBR bot 24/7, there would probably be a bot. But you can't, and there isn't.

As for you're broader claims about cheating:

- I agree that it is pathetic.
- I completely disagree about the appropriate response. Until ANet does something about it, it's here. It's real. You have to deal with it. Complaining about it won't solve matters. You have to adapt.
- It is not impossible to adapt. You know what the bot is going to do. It has limitations. It's bad at splitting. It's bad at energy management. It's bad at dealing with certain hexes.

That is the healthy attitude. Spitting on other people isn't going to get you anywhere. Neither will complaining about reality.

Reverend Dr · Jan 20, 2010, 05:13 AM // 05:13

What part of its easy to turn on and off bot behavior with the push of a button do you not understand? Need to interrupt shit, turn in on. Need to play normal, turn it off. Its hard to "take advantage of bot behavior" when the controller turns off the bot the moment that behavior starts being disadvantageous.

Jesus RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO. There are enough hurdles for new players, do they also have to learn how to beat bots before they can have any success at this game, are their cries of bot only going to be met with "l2p"?

Martin Alvito · Jan 20, 2010, 05:24 AM // 05:24

They shouldn't have to learn how to beat bots. But while the bots are around, they need to.

If I force you to turn the bot off, the mission is accomplished, no? You are no longer cheating. Face it: a bar loaded up with interrupts is pretty bad if you have to turn off the hacks. You'd rather have a real Mesmer bar at that point.

Apparently I can't stress this enough: I want the bots gone too. But there is no sense in getting all worked up about them in the meantime. There's not much to do except counter the bots effectively and then laugh at the botters.